Post by PTG Ty1er Ward on Nov 7, 2015 19:27:37 GMT
If you're happy with it that way then it's fine. Controller users generally stay away from toe changes because the tunes for controllers aren't generally concerned with slip angles of the car. The cars wheels turn left and right at 56 degrees (28 degrees left and 28 right) as an example. The faster controller users and tuners tune cars that only use maybe 15 degrees each way, so the toe changes away from zero don't do much and only potentially slow the car straight line a tiny bit and can increase braking distances (but the idea is you make it up in cornering speed). You can also wear the tires faster using the wrong toe setup changes.
0.5 degrees (IN or OUT) is a lot for a passenger car, but I can sometimes be in that range with GT cars for example (even more for Prototypes and Open Wheelers). If you use "normal steering" it also negates some of the advantages for using Toe. But like I said, if you like the way it drives and happy with your lap times, that's all that matters
can you go above -0.2 for toe-out? Or, is there a range for toe-out you should stay within?
I ask as I have toe-out set to -0.5 on my B600 tune for the 2014 Lexus IS350. I really like how she handles and she hits the corners pretty smooth.
I have used -0.4 before myself. But, read a comment on FM6.net you should never go above -0.2
Dadocter
Are you referring to front or rear toe?
I think the normal is toe in on the rear, toe out on the front
Anyway for me I'll run a car for 5 - 10 laps with stock settings changing one thing at a time, with the toe it would be one of the last things I change as it creates drag (apparently). My suggestion is to start at zero and adjust 1 click at a time and run 5 - 10 laps, if you get to -8 for example and your running a second quicker than 0, then who cares what someone has said you should never do, -8 works for that car. Hopefully someone with a little more knowledge than myself will chime in and maybe explain it a bit better but for now, laptimes are what show if it works.
Feel free to share it up, I don't mind running some laps and trying to give some feedback
As far as wear. I wouldn't worry about it. I had racing series that was simulation and 30+ laps and +.4and -.2 on the rear had no real worry on wear as the same car build with 0/0 also now with fuel running out and tires barely having wear. No big worry at all anymore.
I know I like -toe on the rear. It helps the car follow the front in the turns, stabilizes the rear and makes it more "predictable". Best way I know to describe it.
Often I find that 0/0 set up the car and then use toe at the end to refine a bit
When I came here it was a no no to use toe except in the rear on higher powered cars and having worked on cars a bit more. I tend to agree. Normally car is good at 0/0 and the benifits of toe are normally a cover for suspension/dampening/ Arb set ups.
Also so as to top speed scrub. Believe it or not camber affects that more the -.2 rear toe. (I'm an oval fan in Forza and top speed and cornering speed is very important and I've spent hours refining and noticing. This is especially extremely noticeable in project cars and now that camber is a bigger factor in FM6 (no more 3.5 to 3.0 cambers- it's more noticeable in FM6 as well.
Back to toe: I have gone as high as .4 to .5 before so while a real car would have excess wear etc. this is a game and what work works and ultimately. If it feels right for you (who you are tuning it for) Use it. But if it's cover for not understanding tuning of suspension, I suggest learning that aspect. I myself am still on the journey of understanding all this too. And everything written above is from my person experience and observations.
To give you an idea Pervasive, no real world cars use 0/0. The factory rear toe IN for my 350Z is 0.37degrees. A Honda S2000 by comparison is 0.45 degrees. A 0.5 IN at the rear is by no means "excessive". I also have a picture of an Arrows F1 Ring GP setup sheet (from 2001) and the toes are not "FM.net friendly" but work as advertised in Forza if you use a wheel/sim steering and have the rest of the geometry setup correctly. (That goes for just about any car I've come across....maybe the Nismo GTR LM notwithstanding lol)
Post by PTG Ty1er Ward on Nov 10, 2015 13:59:27 GMT
Increasing the front bump will help by slowing the speed of the weight transferring to the front. BC can also suggest what to do with the diffs (for the pad).
Post by PTG Ty1er Ward on Nov 10, 2015 14:10:05 GMT
No worries mate. Try it 1 click at a time. If you get to 4 and don't feel a difference then go back to where you were and stiffen the front spring 10lbs at a time
Decel seems to be much more exagerated than it was in the past, jack that up an extra 10% - 20% It used to be very common for me in forza 5 to run like 10-15- for my decel ive been running quite a bit higher on a lot of cars - like 20-30 depending on the car. Best if u can balance out the suspension first or even shorten the gears so its not as drastic, but u will know if its the dif.
That may end up being too high it's very car dependent and I find this is one of the most preferable and driving style based settings. I like to drive with the throttle and lots of rotation so my dif settings are usually fairly low but it's one of the settings that makes cars difficult to drive, but I find its the main component in rotation. It allows me to just ease off the throttle and get the car pointing where I want but requires lots of throttle modulation not to over rotate. You pretty much always have to be on some % of throttle or it will want to turn yoy around the lower the decel number.
Another one where there is no definitive number but you want the highest number you can get away with without massive corner exit oversteer or too much throttle modulation not allowing you to get on the power. The higher the number the greater the propulsion is out of the corner but as i said this causes corner exit oversteer as well. The lower the number the less power you are translating to the pavement as it is letting the wheels have a higher difference in speed.
Lower number allows the inside wheel to have a larger difference in speed to the outside wheel. - This causes corner exit understeer and makes cars have a tendency to push towards the outside of the track. Due to the inside having a higher speed than the outside you get less forward propulsion.
Higher number locks the axles together at the same speed. This causes corner exit oversteer because the outside wheel spinning while turning wants to pull the rear end of the car towards the outside of the track. However if you can get the power down you are getting maximum propulsion as both wheels are putting the maximum amount of thrust forward down at the same time.
So if 40-50 is the range in which you can get the most power down the quickest without oversteering or without understeer causing you to push too far to the outside of the track and forcing you to lift than thats a good spot. I use it to balance corner exit.
Summary: Too low = slow corner exit, corner exit understeer too high = too much wheelspin bad corner exit, corner exit oversteer.
I wasn't starting anything honest lol. Your advise has helped a lot both of you. I now have the tune I'm working on 95% complete to how I like them to feel. I just need to fine tune a few bits then it's ready. Once again thank you for the help
Holden COMMODORE VL Tune for Rio Mountain - Shared
It's not really a leaderboard tune - but I've been trying out different cars that I do not have affinity for for the HLC at rio mountain and while not breaking down the time barriers this commodore group a --- is an awesome grip and sound car that you are just able to have a forget your life, zone out and run the Rio Mountain circuit
I didn't get the build written down But it is tires as wide as they can be, race slick, I think 19inch rims, prolly the heaviest rim, aero, the lowest engine swap, race dif, race tranny, Arb, susp. Roll cage, weight reduction etc. (Pretty sure I ran out of PI so brakes are just one upgrade up
Don't think any engine parts.
It's a high revving - awesome sounding- I have gears overlap so if you change down in middle of turn if you blow it, and your still in power band. With the course's flow--- i just get lost in the sound and zone out doing lap after lap. I think I did over 50 laps in test drive with out changing a setting zoned out.
Warning this is too slow for HLC.
I'll post settings here when I get to work. I took pictures of the screens. Again this is just a fun car to drive. If I run across a car that has potential other then Elise and lancia (skipping beetle) I'll post up.
Looks to me that this track needs tires (wide, racing slicks--- grip) so I'm literally buying every car in e and d class and seeing how wide I can make tires and then make a decision from there. I've tried less aero but it seems that having the aero to go through turns faster is more important then less aero for higher speeds on straights.
I was able to eek out into the 43s in this car so its not terrible time wise but its no lancia where I can be consistent in mid 42s to low 43s
Next weekend I'll finish working on Toyota 95 MR2 --- I have it down to and able to get into high 42s so when I'm happy with it I'll share it and see what Steve can do with it (or anyone fast) before they move on to Elise or beetle for the LB.
Hope you enjoy the commodore. I find I can lose myself driving for 30-50 minutes in it.
Well apparently I didn't share it. It is now. And here is OS. Ts nothing special just fun car to drive on the mountain
Commodore VL Engine swap 2.6l I6-TT No engine upgrades sport brakes Race suspension Race Arb Roll cage Race weight reduction Race tranny Race diff Race tire compound Widest tire width front and back 245/285 19rims Lexani ltc-701 rims Forza aero front and back
Tune 27.5/27.5 3.93, 2.91, 2.01, 1.57, 1.33, 1.15, 1.03 (I didn't adjust 5th and 6th as they are not needed on track) -2.4/-2.1 .1/-.2 7.0 27.04 22.66 467.6/478.9 3.5/4.1 7.5/6.9 2.7/2.5 Full aero 196/379 Brake non adjustable 80/23
Anyone looked into the 919 yet? Man the thing is a rocket. But doesn't have enough gears it needs like 4 more. I haven't figured out power band yet but racing in stock one I switched to telemetry and figured I better pound though the gears. Igear changes might need to be at 5k but it so quick that I never change there. I manage 6k and I'm breaking my spa and LaSarthe time easily in Audi. By seconds
0-100 benchmark is 4.5 sec and most 1st/2nd gear turns done in 3rd/4th gear. I just use lower gears to limit the HP/torque to the wheels.
But it runs out at 150 or so. Two more gears and 0-200 would be God aweful fast and probably take on the Mazda 787.
I'm good on a tune. I was talking about it stock and car potential. Car has major accel track/ grip as long as you dont need top end it can take Mazda on in my opinion. Mazda will still rule the boards but I will be able to get in this car and beat most in Mazda and on some tracks it will take top marks.
The gt2 rs is another rocket but in s class no way it's competing against that array of cars and de tune can am cars. But man it was fun stock. Front end getting a bit light as it accelerated so fast at monza.
I'm getting much more confident in myself so you'll see bases tunes and or questions specifically about parts. I'll OS and then get feed back on improvements. Etc. but focusing more on building a bit and just get the car so I like it on a track I'm running.
I was just trying to spur some convo. If you actually run stock (which apparently no one does ) it's a 7 gear - and due to power band you switch gears like your in stock F1 (every 1/2 second or so) - so I'm probably only person who seen it has 7 gears as with power band so low. Every one has it set for 3 or 4 gears.
Stock 3-7 was all I used and was considering 4-7
The benifit of the career is it makes you (which most consider bad) run the car as the car before tuning and upgrades. I tweaked TPs/ diff/ aero/ and in some cases arbs and suspension when it was tight race or I was concerned -- but ran the car as is in practice and in most case. Ran it as is.
Where before it was more outcome based. (Needed help on viper for a race series and others)
Now it's become it's about the journey. So. Lots less asking for specific tunes. As I'm already trying out what I'm asking
I'm not found my how to start out --- but I'm close (I sort of have a flash tune- but not sure I want to do that and miss out on the aspects the cars shows. Things I wouldn't necessarily like- but may find I do) so currently: Suspension stays same as stock and I use telemetry on the track and I just associate "grip" and suspension. So I make mods based on that. (I want more rear grip) soften rear suspension find a ratio between front and back and the keep it , lower it as a whole. Increase it as a whole - then on to dampening for turn in and exit and arbs for keeping the turn and or when car is nuetral.
I'm well on my journey to becoming OK at tuning. Not one of you guys Per say. But average to better then average I think. For me it's just a necessary element to getting faster and exploring the boundaries.
If I ever find myself with loads of time. I'll be requesting to join a team as I'm turning the corner and if T10 would come off there stupid rule of exporting data it would clearly show how much I've come around in hardcore times. I got it going and it's a great feeling. I've got a long way to go. But, clearly on the right road.
^ quite honestly the method you wrote up is pretty close to how i do it, except i never looked at telemetry (except for maybe tyre pressures) only at laptimes.
Springs to control balance Dif to control rotation Dampers to control curbs/bumps and fine tune grip from the balance Caster to fine tune rotation Alignment/tyre pressures to work on grip and tyre temps.
For me its TPs when warm - I adjust camber that way too. I just keep uping until I can see it doesn't go positive - I'm noticing the slipping in turns seems when camber goes positive so I may be able to do it via sound and feel.
I check out the spring one as well that is why I mentioned it with the springs - but mostly what are the tire temps because I like this - to see if there are correlations that i can put together for others cars - but again I feel like - hey, sean don't make the cars all handle the same let them live on their own.
I ran out of tunes to try on rio - so I just went at it with a bunch of cars. I need to tweak my lancia a bit for the 1st turn - I concentrated on the lower half of the track were I was loosing my time initially and I'm a bit in between gears on top - but I'm close. and as is I had .257 split to my LB in the in the 1st sector so I'm going to get mid 38s and maybe more on perfect lap. I'll probably do the same with the elise.