Subaru BRZ, the quest for a top 100 - V.I.R. BRZ V2.5 shared

[Wrench Monkey 1]

What's going on fellas, I posted on the Forza forums page about a tune I did that I'm looking for feedback on but figured I'd come on over here knowing there are some very fast drivers here. Anyway, it's a B-class BRZ shared under the file name V.I.R. BRZ V2.0 obviously with me, Wrench Monkey 1, as the creator.

I've considered myself fairly rusty at tuning lately and have never been a top driver but as of right now I have the car up to #239 world on the Virginia full track and I'm hoping an excellent driver can take it for a spin and give me opinions on build/tune/etc to help me improve it more.

[PTG W4RLOCK]

We will make sure we give it a go for you.

[Jezza819]

Took it out tonight and I think it's a very stable and predictable car to drive. The best lap I had was 2:05.918.

[Wrench Monkey 1]

Thanks for taking it around Jezza, glad you found it good to drive. Been getting input from a few people on the fm so there maybe a slightly tweaked version coming soon. Had one person run a 2:02.9 sitting at #181 world so now I'm starting to get a little greedy (in the good way) since I've never had a car break the top 100 before

[HLR Juggernaut]

Jun 8, 2016 14:00:34 GMT Wrench Monkey 1 said:

Thanks for taking it around Jezza, glad you found it good to drive. Been getting input from a few people on the fm so there maybe a slightly tweaked version coming soon. Had one person run a 2:02.9 sitting at #181 world so now I'm starting to get a little greedy (in the good way) since I've never had a car break the top 100 before

You can call my name out here.

All in all, it's very good car, I think it has 1.5 seconds at least in it if Baby Cow, Claret, or Ty1er Ward decides to test it. I know I could take 0.3-0.6 out of it if I could get one really good lap in. The thing is I always mess up somewhere, and in that lap I messed up at least 3 times.

[Wrench Monkey 1]

Jun 8, 2016 14:14:47 GMT HLR Juggernaut said:

Jun 8, 2016 14:00:34 GMT Wrench Monkey 1 said:

Thanks for taking it around Jezza, glad you found it good to drive. Been getting input from a few people on the fm so there maybe a slightly tweaked version coming soon. Had one person run a 2:02.9 sitting at #181 world so now I'm starting to get a little greedy (in the good way) since I've never had a car break the top 100 before

You can call my name out here.

All in all, it's very good car, I think it has 1.5 seconds at least in it if Baby Cow, Claret, or Ty1er Ward decides to test it. I know I could take 0.3-0.6 out of it if I could get one really good lap in. The thing is I always mess up somewhere, and in that lap I messed up at least 3 times.

Wasn't aware you were over here as well, but yes, HLR Juggernaut is the secret identity of the driver that has been 90% of the valuable input I've gotten helping me improve this car

[John Viel]

Surely benny or steve will give this a bash when they have a moment. Thanks for the mention jugs but i cant be bothered firing up that t10 abomination they call fm6.

[PTG W4RLOCK]

(disclaimer, im not a fast driver by any means however i try get the most out of a tune).

The Good:
- Good breaks
- Good entry corner speed
- Good build

The bad: (just my opinion)
- Bad oversteet at mid to exit corner causing the rear to slid out
- Uneven tire pressure (more of a personal choice) 32.5 to 33.0 PSI when hot is ideally for this car.

Overall:
Car has good grip, fun to drive, good lobby car.

Some times:
#174 overall, #8 division, #54 americas at VIR North (10 laps

[Wrench Monkey 1]

V.I.R. BRZ V2.5 now shared!!!!

Made another small round of tweaks, feels a little more stable in testing without seeming to lose anything as far as lap times are concerned (ran mostly 2:03.2xx-2:04.1xx laps). I'd love, love, love to test it in rivals to get solid numbers up here and on the LB but my awesome internet is fighting me every step of the way.

I appreciate everyone that's taken the time to drive it throughout it's evolution and had feedback for me, it's all been very valuable to my little project, now it's boom or bust time for my little BRZ!! To prevent taking up to much of your time this is likely the last set of tweaks I make for this car, I truly hope someone can crack the top 100 to give me my first ever top 100 time but it is what it is.

[PTG Benny]

I will be testing this tune (V2.5) this weekend so hopefully I can post a good time on the Leaderboards

[Jezza819]

Jun 8, 2016 15:56:08 GMT PTG W4RLOCK said:

- Bad oversteet at mid to exit corner causing the rear to slid out

I got that two or three times in my two 10 lap runs with version 2.0 but I never know if it's the tune or just my greedy right foot screaming POWAH!!!!!!!

[Wrench Monkey 1]

Jun 9, 2016 16:31:13 GMT Jezza819 said:

Jun 8, 2016 15:56:08 GMT PTG W4RLOCK said:

- Bad oversteet at mid to exit corner causing the rear to slid out

I got that two or three times in my two 10 lap runs with version 2.0 but I never know if it's the tune or just my greedy right foot screaming POWAH!!!!!!!

I know in my case the problem was part car, part greed :-). I had a much more stable version before posting for a few test runs but I couldn't get that version under 2:05 so I really don't wanna tighten it up much more.

The newest version seems to be a happy medium, seems more stable though still requires some finesse. Got it up to #204 on the LB up from #251, if I could hit the turn exit before the long straight as well as Juggernaut did with V2.0 I'd have a much better time. Either way I'm anxiously excited to see what Benny can do with it

[Jezza819]

Jun 9, 2016 16:46:55 GMT Wrench Monkey 1 said:

Jun 9, 2016 16:31:13 GMT Jezza819 said:

I got that two or three times in my two 10 lap runs with version 2.0 but I never know if it's the tune or just my greedy right foot screaming POWAH!!!!!!!

I know in my case the problem was part car, part greed :-). I had a much more stable version before posting for a few test runs but I couldn't get that version under 2:05 so I really don't wanna tighten it up much more.

The newest version seems to be a happy medium, seems more stable though still requires some finesse. Got it up to #204 on the LB up from #251, if I could hit the turn exit before the long straight as well as Juggernaut did with V2.0 I'd have a much better time. Either way I'm anxiously excited to see what Benny can do with it

Just out of curiosity, did you tune it on a controller or a wheel?

[Wrench Monkey 1]

Controller

[Jezza819]

Well 2.5 is definitely the more out of control of the two of them but it's also the fastest. I improved to 2:03.702. The two places it's harder to control for me are the roller coasters just after the first timing mark and those slow turns after the long straight going into the final sector.

[Wrench Monkey 1]

Jun 10, 2016 5:28:32 GMT Jezza819 said:

Well 2.5 is definitely the more out of control of the two of them but it's also the fastest. I improved to 2:03.702. The two places it's harder to control for me are the roller coasters just after the first timing mark and those slow turns after the long straight going into the final sector.

Jezza can you give me a little more info on your driving style and what makes it more out of control? Just curious as I'd like to make a car that works for everyone and personally find it to better fit my driving

[PTG Benny]

Hey guys

I took the brz out for a quick spin and I managed a 2.01.540 which put me #93 in the world

Congrats mate on the tune, it is a very solid build and was a pleasure to drive.

Benny

[Wrench Monkey 1]

Jun 10, 2016 14:40:49 GMT PTG Benny said:

Hey guys

I took the brz out for a quick spin and I managed a 2.01.540 which put me #93 in the world

Congrats mate on the tune, it is a very solid build and was a pleasure to drive.

Benny

Top 100 woohoo!! Guess I can put a stop to the endless tweaking of it for the time being, thanks for taking out Benny & thanks Juggernaut, Jezza and anyone else that sent feedback my way

[Jezza819]

Jun 10, 2016 11:28:53 GMT Wrench Monkey 1 said:

Jun 10, 2016 5:28:32 GMT Jezza819 said:

Well 2.5 is definitely the more out of control of the two of them but it's also the fastest. I improved to 2:03.702. The two places it's harder to control for me are the roller coasters just after the first timing mark and those slow turns after the long straight going into the final sector.

Jezza can you give me a little more info on your driving style and what makes it more out of control? Just curious as I'd like to make a car that works for everyone and personally find it to better fit my driving

Maybe looser is the more appropriate description. 2.0 feels more planted, turns in sharper, doesn't have much push or understeer. And it might be the extra bit of speed 2.5 has along with the slight reduction on handling. I had a couple of big accidents in the roller coaster section because it would understeer. I just had to remember to allow for it. 

2.0 fits how I like to causally drive a car. Turns in when I tell it to. Not much drama, little bit of oversteer. But that's usually not the fastest way around and 2.5 proves that. If I were still concerned with building affinity or my bank account, then I would use 2.0. But now that I just like to see how fast I can go, it would be 2.5. A little madness never hurt anybody. 

[John Viel]

Jezza usually a little more oversteer makes for a faster tune. are you sure your not overdriving 2.5? to me it doesnt make sense how the more planted (2.0) car has more oversteer than the less grip car (2.5) car. I understand u can tune the oversteer out, but it sounds like its more of a change in build with minor tweaks, but because of the less overall grip you are overdriving.

[Jezza819]

Jun 10, 2016 20:15:34 GMT John Viel said:

Jezza usually a little more oversteer makes for a faster tune. are you sure your not overdriving 2.5? to me it doesnt make sense how the more planted (2.0) car has more oversteer than the less grip car (2.5) car. I understand u can tune the oversteer out, but it sounds like its more of a change in build with minor tweaks, but because of the less overall grip you are overdriving.

I don't know what "overdriving" means. To me overdriving something means you've either spun it out, couldn't make it stop, or went too fast through a turn and pushed off the other direction. But you're not the first to tell me something like that. Several other times I've said something about how a car is driving, "are you sure you're not overdriving it?", "I think you're overdriving it", etc.

It's the same thing whenever I've used the term "rotation" or "rotates". Nobody knows what I'm talking about. I heard the Formula 1 broadcasters here in the US use it again at Monaco a couple of weeks ago. "Look how well the Red Bull is rotating around the corner". What I mean by that is the car is turning properly on it's axis. Front end and rear end are working in harmony to "Rotate" around a corner. It's like when you were a kid plying on the floor with your Hot Wheels or Matchbox cars. You had your thumb on one side and index or middle finger on the other in a pinching grip and turned the cars or "rotated" them around left or right.

To me 2.0 rotates very well around corners. The rear end flows with the front. If I goose the throttle a little too much it can lead to a spin out. Maybe throttle oversteer is what I'm feeling. I'm not the most technically gifted person in the world so I'm pretty sure I use all the wrong terms when describing something. 

But are you saying that I should not be faster in 2.5 than 2.0 because I'm overdriving it? I wouldn't think the faster time would as a result of overdriving it.

[Wrench Monkey 1]

Overdriving simply means pushing the car to far past the limits of either the car itself, the skill of the driver, or a combination of both. It's true you can get a faster car by overdriving it but it is a fine line. It doesn't necessarily mean you've spun out or anything like that just that you may be going to far past those limits and hurting a lap time or making a car feel "wrong". If you think that you are staying within the limits try changing small things around a little, maybe take a slightly different line or brake earlier/later for a corner just little things like that. At the end of the day though every driver is different and no two cars will drive the same, in this case someone may do better in 2.0 than they do in 2.5 or vice-versa because it better suits their style.

As far as rotation is concerned I understand that term perfectly, it's basically a blanket term to sum up multiple aspects of a car making a corner. Racing broadcasters do use it to help easily describe to an audience watching that the car has the right level of oversteer or understeer in it without dragging on for an hour about every aspect involved in making the car "rotate".

I usually like to keep my tuning process to myself, partly to keep from boring people to death with my million changes a minute and partly to prevent myself from looking like an idiot when I do something stupid. This isn't the older Forzas though where I'd be dependant on a tune to earn money, money comes easily in FM6 so now that the car is basically done I have no problem posting the final tune up as an open-source if you'd like (pretty sure I still have my notes on 2.0 as well) then you could freely tinker with my tune as a base to better try and find something that works for you.

[PTG Ty1er Ward]

I could not have said that any better myself. Welcome to the PTG forums. I do hope you stick around and continue to share your work, which appears to be accepted well, and Benny can take it low. Juggs and Warlock are fast in their own right as well. I would just like to mention that Jezza is on one of his wheels (TX or V2). Without boring everyone with 36 pages of how and why the pad and wheel react differently to Forza tuning, the fact of the matter is that it exists. Prior to Forza 5, all compatible wheels were limited to 270 DOR, so tuning translated well between the pad and wheel. Thrustmaster released a 900 DOR wheel with the Xbox One/FM5 release however and Forza (it's 10 years old and designed for a pad) is not coded properly to handle that. So the wheel manufactures have had to make adjustment from their side of things. Thrustmaster has done the worst job at it. Fanatec did very well despite big XBone compatibility launch issues. I don't have a Logitech but Beets likes it and it didn't slow Luke down in the slightest. So anywho, be that as it may, I just thought I would point out that your are likely to receive different feedback from wheel and pad users. It was less of of thing with FM5 mainly due to the newness of XBone and 360 wheels wouldn't work, but the wheel users will continue to grow, especially with PCars, DiRT (and soon AC) being XBone options as well. It's helpful for communication to know if tuning was done on a pad or wheel, and if the feedback is coming from a wheel or pad user.

I myself personally would look forward to trying anything you tune in R, P or X



Edit- in fairness to the TX/Thrustmaster, if I wanted to run Forza 6 LBs for top 10's I would actually choose it over Fanatec. And Thrustmaster T3PA Pro pedals combined with a Ricmotech load cell out brake ANYTHING, including the pad

[PTG W4RLOCK]

It doesn't really matter what vocabulary you use, rotate,.loose, tight, oversteer/understeer, push out, on spliter/off spliter...at the end of the day they all mean the same thing. As Tyler has mentioned everyone who test a particular tune will give you different feedback, also pad/wheel tunes will differ a bit. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to test your tune.

[John Viel]

I coukdnt have worded it much better than monkeywrench. Many people overdrive a car because they thinkpushing the car to the absolute limits is the fastest, but there is a fine line from pushing and overpushing. If you take a corner fast it may not be the fastest way with the particular car or tune it is dependent on the tune and track. Some tunes are meant to be teatered on the edge of grip because they rotate quickly may need slight throttle almost all time (how your describing 2.0). If you try to drive an understeery slower response car the same way it will be slower. Often the less responsive car you need to brake earlier and let the car rotate off throttle before getting back on it (how your describing 2.5). So even tho 2.5 feels more planted than 2.0 (slower rotation) ans has more power because of this its easier to overdrive (brake too late or try to carry too much speed through a corner). Also as tyler mentioned if you are using a wheel and not a pad its evem easier to overdrive. The controller is limited by speed sensitivity, the wheel is less so, just because the wheel will allow you to turn more does not mean it is going to be faster, especially when tuned for a pad thay only requires a percentage of the turning to adequately get around the track.

[HLR Juggernaut]

The 2.0 drives exactly like I like, tiny barely noticable understeer in entry, fairly neutral midcorner, and bit larger oversteer in exit.

This in on how I learned to drive 17 years ago. I was doing so called "Folk Racing" here in Finland The cars are approximately 140-190hp cars and at the time almost always RWD and relatively short wheelbase (except Volvo's). And the fine adjustment tool is sledgehammer, and tha cars looke like scrap. The track is either Snow/Ice Snow/Gravel Gravel/Tarmac full gravel or full tarmac.

Easiest way to get the car around those varied surfaces with just one tune small oversteer is the easiest and therefore usually fastest way.

I probably shuold make a topic out of folk racing, as I refer in to it relatively often when I explane my driving

[Jezza819]

"Overdriving simply means pushing the car to far past the limits of either the car itself, the skill of the driver, or a combination of both. It's true you can get a faster car by overdriving it but it is a fine line. It doesn't necessarily mean you've spun out or anything like that just that you may be going to far past those limits and hurting a lap time or making a car feel "wrong". If you think that you are staying within the limits try changing small things around a little, maybe take a slightly different line or brake earlier/later for a corner just little things like that. At the end of the day though every driver is different and no two cars will drive the same, in this case someone may do better in 2.0 than they do in 2.5 or vice-versa because it better suits their style."

Isn't that the same thing I said? I might have taken it to it's ultimate degree with an off or something but pushing too hard is pushing too hard and that will make you slower. Even dumb old me understands that. But that will show itself over a several lap session. You can tell if you've taken this corner too deep or took too much curb and you need to change it the next time around. 2.5 feels harder to keep within the limits than 2.0 but it's faster when I do. How ever I don't understand being asked if I'm overdriving the faster car. Shouldn't that be the other way around? "Are you sure you're not overdriving the more stable car making your time slower? In that case the answer would be an emphatic NO.

Tyler said, " I would just like to mention that Jezza is on one of his wheels (TX or V2)." Yes the V2 is in the repair shop so I'm using the TX again. That's why I asked if this was a controller tune or wheel tune. I've been going back into classes where I've set my quickest times on the V2 and the TX is beating them. The TX has worse steering, terrible brakes, but is quicker. If I had the space I would change them out depending on which game I'm playing. TX for Forza, V2 for Project Cars. I'm going to look into getting that brake mod just to see what it does on the TX.

"I coukdnt have worded it much better than monkeywrench. Many people overdrive a car because they thinkpushing the car to the absolute limits is the fastest, but there is a fine line from pushing and overpushing. If you take a corner fast it may not be the fastest way with the particular car or tune it is dependent on the tune and track. Some tunes are meant to be teatered on the edge of grip because they rotate quickly may need slight throttle almost all time (how your describing 2.0). If you try to drive an understeery slower response car the same way it will be slower. Often the less responsive car you need to brake earlier and let the car rotate off throttle before getting back on it (how your describing 2.5). So even tho 2.5 feels more planted than 2.0 (slower rotation) ans has more power because of this its easier to overdrive (brake too late or try to carry too much speed through a corner). Also as tyler mentioned if you are using a wheel and not a pad its evem easier to overdrive. The controller is limited by speed sensitivity, the wheel is less so, just because the wheel will allow you to turn more does not mean it is going to be faster, especially when tuned for a pad thay only requires a percentage of the turning to adequately get around the track."

I learned early on with 2.5 that I needed to do exactly what you said, brake earlier let it rotate off throttle before getting back on it again. All of these "overdriving" things I know not to do. If I was stuck at say 4 or 5 seconds slower than what I'm running and kept driving the same way then overdriving might be a justification. But I run 8-10 lap sessions on longer tracks and 15-20 laps on shorter tracks with no other cars on track so mistakes are pretty apparent. I learned this a few months ago and once I did my times starting dropping.

[PTG Steve]

Love BRZ's and GT86's. Especially in B-Class. I'll give this a try in a couple hours and let you know.

[PTG Steve]

Alright just gave it a go. The tune feels really good- has great power and is really responsive. Corner exit was a little tricky sometimes but that was probably just me pushing it too hard- just have to be careful on the throttle. That being said, I posted a 2:00.403 which is good for #12 Americas and #50 overall. Thanks for sharing!

Edit: This was in the 2.5 version.

[Wrench Monkey 1]

Jun 13, 2016 20:37:23 GMT PTG Steve said:

Alright just gave it a go. The tune feels really good- has great power and is really responsive. Corner exit was a little tricky sometimes but that was probably just me pushing it too hard- just have to be careful on the throttle. That being said, I posted a 2:00.403 which is good for #12 Americas and #50 overall. Thanks for sharing!

Edit: This was in the 2.5 version.

Thanks for running it man, you PTG guys driving this car have really impressed me, I mean I already knew you were all fast just pleasantly surprised my tune is stable enough to be fast, #50 makes it the 2nd fastest BRZ/86 on V.I.R. and it's only trailing one the has about 60hp more than my version